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Hello everyone, I’m Dr. Michael Mantell with Family Law Matters, and I’m privileged to be with Bonnie Rabinovitch Mantel, owner and managing partner of Primus Family Law Group. Bonnie, hi, how are you doing? Hi Michael, I’m doing okay. A little stir crazy, you know, month 97 inside, but I’m also happy to have with us today Koryn Shepard.

She is one of our amazing associate attorneys at Primus Family Law Team. You can be a little shy. You are a formidable, relentless, and I’ll add, as people can tell already, very personable team of highly experienced family law attorneys.

And when people think of divorce, I think most people think of going into this high drama, expensive, long, drawn-out, in-court hearing trial. There are other alternatives, is that true? Yeah, you know, Koryn is one of the people in our office who does a lot of mediation and settlement negotiation, right? We are trained as litigators, obviously, but COVID-19 is a perfect mind-reality check because with the courts closed, so what are we supposed to do? Nothing? Just leave everything up to whenever the courts reopen? No, Koryn, why don’t you let us, why don’t you tell us a little bit about how mediation works at Primus? Okay, well one of the things I think is really nice about having, you know, seasoned and experienced litigators also doing mediation is that, you know, yesterday we were in court and today we’re sitting down with you doing your mediation. So what that means is that we’ve been in front of these judges that, you know, you will otherwise be in front of.

We have had these issues, we have literally just argued them and had, you know, a judge make a ruling or have an outcome. And so we’re very, very familiar with all of the judicial officers, the different demeanors that they have, and we’re pretty familiar with the issues and how they are going to come out. So I think that the first thing that’s nice about having a team that does both things is that, yes, we can go fight your issue in court if you really need to fight your issue in court, but if you really want to sit down and resolve it without having to do that, you know that we are experienced in fighting for these issues so that we know, generally speaking, what the outcome is probably going to be.

So we have that experience and it’s very recent experience. Because the courts are closed right now, people are still wanting to get their issues resolved. And unfortunately, because there is not that same outlet now where you can’t just go in and ask for a hearing, our legal community is having to get a little bit creative.

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And I can say that I’ve had the privilege of being able to help a couple of attorneys in town resolve their cases through a more mediative process. So I got information from both sides. They both did a brief.

Basically, that just means a piece of paper that gives me all the issues and the facts. And so I read that. I looked over the things that were relevant to whatever the issues were.

And then I would sit down on a Zoom meeting with them, and we would just talk it out until we were able to get resolutions. So going back to the way COVID has affected, right, Michael, you know, everything’s been closed. We’ve talked about this on this segment many, many times.

Well, there’s an effect of that, right? We had no hearings being heard that were already scheduled since March. And didn’t they estimate that was like somewhere around 30,000 different hearings that have to be rescheduled? Right. And so of course, that means that there’s going to be an enormous backlog of cases coming forward.

So all of those people that were already scheduled have to be rescheduled, which is going to just bump everything back. And our court system was already fairly impacted. And so we were having to wait a significant amount of time for hearings.

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And so this is really going to compound that problem even more. So if you don’t want to sit around and have your case not resolved for the next year or two, mediation is really a much better option to get it expedited and through. So I do think that right now, and I think that honestly, the judicial officers are probably going to appreciate everyone trying to take things or keep things off the calendar if they don’t have to be there.

You know, if you and the other side can resolve your issues without having to take up a hearing time, I’m sure the courts are going to greatly appreciate that because there are some cases that do need to be heard, that they do need the time in court. And so it would be nice if the things that really cannot be resolved by sitting down and collaborating together, they could take priority in hearings rather than things that really can get resolved outside of court if they put in a little bit of effort. I have a question for you both.

I only understand this. So I have a couple that I’m doing some coaching with. They’re trying to divorce.

They now have an opportunity, instead of waiting God knows how long, spending much, much more money, creating intense drama and heartache and stress and tension and all that does to oneself, physiologically, psychologically, they can sit down with one of you together and resolve it. Less money, less time, perhaps less arguing. So what does it take for someone, for a couple to have the right mindset, maximize the benefit of sitting down with one of you and getting this mediated and putting it behind? Well, there’s two different ways.

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What Koryn was talking about was one of the ways where you already have a case that’s going on, you have issues that are arising, both sides most likely already have their attorneys. But for whatever reason, they’re not finding a middle ground. So they go out and they ask for the services of another person, a third attorney, who acts as a neutral between the two, takes the information that a judge would look at, and looks at it and says, if this goes to trial, this is how it would be decided.

Maybe you guys want to try to do that now, so you don’t have to wait over a year. Because realistically, time-wise, before COVID-19, we were already waiting 8, 9, 10 months to get a trial date. That was when things were moving along.

So if we were already waiting 8, 9, 10 months to get a trial date, now we have to reschedule. Don’t forget we have all this domestic violence that has to take precedence because those are real emergencies. So then everything, that 10-month wait could be two years without custody orders.

So that’s one way, is to resolve the whole case. What you’re talking about, Michael, is when you’ve got two people who may not have attorneys, but they’re willing. This is the only way that one works, is they have to be willing to come in, to trust the process that we are neutral.

We don’t pick a side. We don’t give legal advice to one side. We merely act as a conduit to what the law would do, and whether or not they’re willing to agree to that, or some variation of it.

The good part about mediation is it’s all confidential. So court and litigation, these people really need to realize, especially if you have children, everything you put in a declaration is public. Your kids and your kids’ friends can go and look at the information, whereas in a mediation, it’s private.

We cannot publish. So that’s another benefit, is people get to keep their dirty laundry a little bit more in-house, and focus on what’s relevant versus revenge, relevant versus revenge. They kind of really have to be, though, willing to come to the table.

And when they are, right, that can be done, doesn’t take long. It can be done in a month, and you could already have your documents prepared, and when the court reopens, you file them, and you’re good to go. Right.

I think it does take a level of really being willing to sit down and think in a more collaborative way about a resolution. It takes a little bit more trust, I think, because when people are too divided, I don’t think that they’re usually able to come to really good joint solutions. But I think if they’re both willing to say, listen, there’s going to be a compromise on issues on all sides, and we both need to give a little to get a lot, that is really what you need, that mindset of saying, I’m ready for this process to be done.

I’m ready to reach the compromises I need to reach so that we can be done with the fighting and move forward. I find that people who are really interested in putting their children’s best interests first do better in mediation because, of course, then you’re not constantly going through this long, drawn-out battle, which is causing you stress, which then your children are picking up on. And I don’t know that people are maybe at the outset as aware of how much the children pick up on your stress and how much the children are aware of what’s happening.

Even if you’re doing the best that you can to shelter them, they can tell when their parents are in distress. They know when they’re fighting. They just do.

And so if you can get past that point with your other side, it’s better for the children. If there are no children, then for your own mental and emotional well-being, it’s really not healthy to be engaged in the middle of a legal battle. Even the best legal battle is still stressful.

So it is better for the individual to be able to move forward with their lives and not to have to constantly think about this and wake up and think about it every single day. And another thing that we can do is, you know, while we talk about resolving the whole case or getting your whole case done, we can also mediate particular issues. Right now, for example, COVID-19, everybody’s got custody and visitation questions.

What if you don’t have custody and visitation orders and you can’t get to the court? So we can also act as mediators on a particular issue, meaning two attorneys and a neutral attorney or the attorney with the parties get together and come up with, what are we going to do right now? And that gets resolved. It gets formalized in a document. Even if the document can’t be filed with the court, it’s still signed.

It’s still a contract. It’s still meant to be binding. And we expect, just like the court would, expect you to follow it because you’ve agreed to it.

People are also more likely to adhere. I, at least in my experience, have found if you agree to something, you’re more likely to stick to it than if it’s, you know, been imposed upon you by a judicial officer who gets about, on average, what, 20 to 40 minutes. I mean, barring a evidentiary hearing, 20 to 40 minutes to determine what’s in the best interest of your children in your case, it’s not always enough time.

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Yeah, that’s true. I imagine that the number of people who go through mediation with one of you or others in your office, Amy, who go through mediation, probably a very small number, if any, need to wind up in a courtroom hearing because you will resolve it. But even for those who you can’t resolve it, they are so prepared to go into the court because so many issues have already been resolved, right? So the court hearing even becomes less.

So all the way around seems like an ideal way for couples to do it on their time schedule, the least expensive way, the most healthy emotionally, physically, physical way to do this, the best for moving forward, free of animosity and holding on to issues. Why would someone not choose this way? Well, I mean, there are probably reasons. And I think when you have extraordinarily high conflict folks or issues where there’s possible domestic violence, so obviously when you have a domestic violence victim in the same room with the abuser, that is very difficult.

And so that couple might not be ideal for our mediation process. Again, super high conflict people who, when you have somebody who says, if one says black, the other one’s going to say white, you’re not going to have an effective mediation because you’re not there to resolve, you’re there to argue. And if the couple is still in that vortex, that whirlpool of fight, and they are wanting to stay in that fight, and I’m sure probably as part of your discussions with your own clients, and divorce is a bit like dealing with a death or something like that.

There’s definitely the stages of grief that people go through. Anger is one of those stages. If they’re caught at that stage, they may not be an ideal couple for the divorce, or I’m sorry, for the mediation process, they’re going to probably want to litigate.

But ideally, then if they would go to somebody like you, or they have their own therapist or whatever, if they can get out of that stage of that grief process, and move on through that process and get healthy, they may then qualify for mediation. So I mean, I mean, I know it sounds like, well, just mediate sounds great. But then if they are not in the position where they’re willing to sit down and compromise, and they will have to compromise, like, there’s no mediation that resolves without compromises on both sides.

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So that is something to be aware of going in, you’re gonna have to compromise. If you are not at that place where you’re ready to do that, you’re gonna spend money, and then you’re gonna spend money again, because you’re gonna end up in court and litigating. So that’s just that.

So I don’t know about you, Koryn, but I’ve found at least in the mediations I’ve done, or the ones that I’ve done, like meaning they’ve come to the table, they’re willing to compromise. I’ve never had anybody not fully resolve their case, whatever the issue was, be it a one issue, or their entire case. They’ve always managed because they want it, like you say, because they were willing to compromise and mediation was always successful.

I’ve never had anybody go back and hire another attorney because they can’t use the mediator to represent them, and then, you know, proceed to litigation. I don’t know if… I mean, I’ve definitely seen mediation processes break down. I’ve seen people, you know, get forward progress and then move backwards.

So I have seen that, but I do agree with you that generally speaking, I do think that people tend to at least resolve a few of their issues, if not everything. And so like Dr. Mantel said, I think that that at least reduces the number of contacts they have to have with the court or their own attorneys, and then they don’t have to maybe fight over every single issue. You know, they can narrow it down to just those issues where they’re stuck on, because a lot of people… a lot of people will kind of take an all-or-nothing approach.

But really, I don’t think that that is actually a really good approach for divorces, because some issues are not tied to other issues. So you can certainly resolve, say, all your property issues, even if you can’t decide what custody schedule is best for the kids. Or… The other way.

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Yeah, or the other way around. You know, there are definitely issues that you can handle and be done with those, and then you’re not spending money on them that you don’t need to spend. And you can then save your money to deal with the process on the issues that you really are stuck on.

Absolutely. And that’s what we try to do. We try to narrow, we try to resolve as much.

I mean, we don’t have a problem litigating. We’ve said that many, many times. But it’s not about lining our pockets, or it’s about getting you through the process.

That’s why we all do this. We didn’t get into family law to, you know, move to Beverly Hills. We got into family law because we actually wanted to help people.

And through this process that each one has touched each one of us at Primus Family Law in a different way. And so we know how horrible it can be, or how difficult or emotionally draining. And we all looked and went, nope, we want to make this easier for people.

Litigation is definitely going to be more stressful. I can’t say that strongly enough. Mediation may be stressful, and it can be certainly because talking through these issues with the other side is stressful.

But going to court, when you don’t do this for a living, it is stressful. It’s stress-provoking. Even when you do it for a living.

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But obviously, there’s a level of feeling comfortable. Like, you know, at this point, I feel comfortable in a courtroom. I don’t find the presence of the bailiff and the judge and all that intimidating and uncomfortable and strangers and all of that.

But if it were my first time, and I had never been in a courtroom before, and I didn’t know what was going to happen, and I didn’t know when to talk, and I just, it’s stressful. Just the being in the room in an unfamiliar environment is stressful. The nice thing too about mediation is that, you know, even if you can’t resolve your issues, maybe it gives you a chance to talk about them so you will understand the other side’s position on things a little better.

So at least things may be clearer, and you will understand where you disagree or why you disagree a little bit more. So that can be insightful for people. So I think that it’s always nice to try to get something resolved, or at least to approach some deeper level of understanding when you’re trying to get through this process.

And that’s a great way of doing it. I imagine that. See, my daughter loves Koryn because she has so many different ways of looking at it.

It’s not just from legal perspective. She also has, you know, their mental health in there. I mean, all around.

That’s why Koryn is amazing. Thank you. That’s why the firm, Primus Family Law Group, is amazing.

And this is an example of where family law matters is so relevant. The other thing that jumps out at me is that as two trained litigators, maybe off camera before, Bonnie, or in this session now, but having attorneys who are litigators and are certainly fine, you know, trained, well-suited to go to court, they know how to keep you out of court. And so, like I’ve said here before, you seek closure, not revenge.

You, in mediation work particularly, recognize that divorce is the end of a marriage. It could be the end of the world. Not where someone walks away feeling like, well, I gave in.

I just saw the solid. No, people are in agreement. That’s what you strive to bring forward, an agreement, meaning you agree and you agree.

Not my first preference, but I agree. I think sometimes people do feel like they walk away that way. But you know what, to be honest with you, like, even if you feel that way, the other side probably also feels that way.

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And the feeling that you have when you walk away from court is going to be, even on a win, is significantly worse than that. I mean, I’ve seen people walk out of court winning an issue. And I use air quotes heavily on that one.

And they still go outside and cry and it’s horrible. And, you know, it’s still so super stressful. So, I mean, there’s a phrase that goes around that if the attorneys have done their jobs right, both sides have lost.

And really, if you have two litigating attorneys, and, you know, neither one of us is afraid to go into a courtroom and make our argument, are telling you, you really should mediate. Like, we really do recommend it. And I do.

I recommend it before litigation every day of the week. You should probably take our advice on that. Like, there’s a reason why we as litigators are telling you, you don’t want to you don’t really like it doesn’t.

Having your day in court is not as satisfying as people like to think it will be. It is not maybe having college money for their children. Right? Yeah, maybe, maybe a client wants to move to Beverly Hills.

Maybe they just want to sleep. I mean, and you do have to kind of live with your decisions. And you know, if you go to court and fight your ex, and you know, make it a huge, ugly battle.

And, you know, you know, there are definitely consequences to that. And they can be far reaching with children or without. And so, you know, all of us do kind of at the end of the day have to live with our decisions.

And so, you know, if your decision was to pick the hard road, could be financially devastating for you. And now instead of retiring when you want to retire, where you want to retire, you got to work an extra 5,10 or 15 years. Who wants that? If people want to get in touch with Primus Family Law, Bonnie Man, Bonnie Rabinovitch-Mantel or Koryn Shepard, how do they do it? Well, you can call 619-574-8000.

We are open remotely, we are definitely in contact, we are ready to help you plead your case or settle your case. And you can reach us at PrimusFamilyLaw.com