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Hi everyone, I’m Dr. Michael Mantell. Welcome to another edition of Family Law Matters with Bonnie Rabinovitch Mantel, founding managing partner of Primus Family Law Group. Hi Bonnie.

Hi Michael, you make that sound like a mouthful. I know, it was a mouthful. It’s coming out and I’m thinking there should have been a pause there somewhere, but that’s okay.

So let’s talk today about something that you brought up in our last edition of Family Law Matters, and that is alienation. Parent alienation. What, I mean, as I say the words, like burning, because it’s such an antagonistic term, and in many ways, ultimately, it seems to be about the parent.

She is turning or he is turning Mary or Johnny or whatever against me. Of course, it’s about the child’s emotional well-being, but let’s talk about it from the family law perspective. You’ve had cases of alienation.

What is it? Well, first of all, you know, when you go parental alienation, that becomes almost like a medical term. So right there, judges are very leery about it because we need an expert and then we have to discuss it. Obviously, anytime you say anything negative in front of your child about the other parent, that’s toxic.

That’s just toxic because the child is obviously a makeup of the two of you. So no matter how you do it, child’s got to internalize that somehow, some way. So I have a question, and of course, that’s true, but that happens in healthy, good marriages commonly.

People argue, I can’t believe your dad did this, or will you please tell your mother not to? It’s common. We don’t do anything about it in intact marriages, but yet in divorce, this becomes an issue. It only becomes an issue when somebody raises it.

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So if somebody puts it in a pleading that the other side is alienating the child against them, that puts the issue before the court. Now, I will tell you that our judicial body does not like that term. It doesn’t like parental alienation because people tend to water it down.

Everything becomes alienation. Picking up the phone by accident and having a conversation where you vent, let’s say, with your therapist on a Zoom meeting, and your child happens to walk in the room and hears it. Sometimes parents do it purposefully, and I think where the courts have taken to accepting it as an issue is when it’s become almost a clinical, chronic, systematic happening where it’s constant, and there’s no let up.

So in that case, and the child’s being affected by it, won’t go to the other home, won’t speak to the other parent, won’t keep in communication, is doing things as a result. That’s when you’ve got an actual issue of it. But unfortunately, a lot of people, you know, grapple on to it’s like the word narcissist.

It’s like the word, you know, egotistical. In divorce, those become larger, and I’m not saying, you know, for those of you out there who have those issues, yes, there are people who are true narcissists, and there are people who are real bad people out there. Nobody’s saying otherwise, but because of the way family law is, it becomes watered down as it’s overused, and so the court takes a harder line approach to it.

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So as an attorney, what do you request from the parent who comes to you, and as you’re the attorney, you know, you have the sophistication to serve as this client. What do you need from that person to go into court and deal with this? Well, it depends. Again, like I said, it depends how pervasive it is.

If it’s really pervasive, then you file a motion to modify custody or visitation as a result, and you plead all the facts that you believe are showing that this is not just, you know, somebody spouting off on a bad weekend, but it is a pervasive ongoing tactic, and then it’s up to the judge’s discretion based on the evidence presented as to, and obviously there’s going to be an opposition and their view of the facts, and it’s up to the judge’s discretion whether or not that is truly what’s happening, and if that is truly what’s happening, it could severely affect the offending parent’s visitation rights, custodial rights, because obviously if this is going on and it’s toxic to the child, it may reduce somebody’s visitation. It may result in supervised, but again, it is a last resort situation because you’ve got a high burden to prove that this has happened. So on that note, what people are listening to this and they’re thinking, yeah, well, my husband is always bad-mouthing me to my son about bad-mouthing my, however you say it, bad-mouthing me to my son.

What is it, what is the proof? What are you looking for? What is an example for you to say, that’s it? Well, it’s, you don’t want to go over to that parent’s house, or you’re not allowed to, or the communications are cut off, or that parent’s a bad person, or things that are just over the top instead of, you know, hey, dad and I don’t get along, or mom and I don’t get along, and you’re going to hear, you know, us yelling and arguing more than normal has nothing to do with you, you know, and versus, you know, your father, your mother, you know, it’s very, very specific, pervasive, it’s it’s hard, it’s like art, Michael. You’ll know it when you see it. Okay, so parents who says, the other parent, he’s so, or she’s so, pick a word, is one thing, but the kid who says, I don’t want to go to daddy’s house, okay, you don’t have to, you don’t have to.

Is that an example? That’s a problem, because you’re you’re required to facilitate and foster the relationship, so why don’t you want to go to daddy’s house? Well, first of all, it depends on the age. Two, three, four-year-olds, you know, they like to be where they are, they don’t want to move, so they’ll say, I don’t want to go, but 12 seconds later, after they got there, they’re fine. 14-year-olds, why? Why don’t you want to go? Well, because I don’t like, you know, the way daddy doesn’t, daddy makes me do chores, or mommy makes me clean my room, or well, you know, you, the other parent is still supposed to foster the relationship, because this is not about dad’s or mom’s relationship with the child, this is about mom and dad’s relationship with each other not working, should have no bearing on the other, so good co-parents foster and say, no, you have to go, dad is fine, you’re going to enjoy when you get back, we’ll do this, you’ll have fun, that’s what you’re supposed to do, should, could, very bad words.

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Very interesting that you’re using the word that they can’t, they’re not just supposed to, you know, make sure the kid gets there, but they’re supposed to foster the relationship. Speaking of fostering a relationship, let’s shift gears, because we’ve been talking about some pretty negative things in parental custody the last couple of Family Law Matter episodes, so my question is this, we’re going to talk about Primus Family Law Group, because here the culture is collaborative, it’s very personalized, yes, you’re formidable, yes, you’re relentless, yes, you’re tenacious, yes, I wouldn’t want anyone else to ever step up for me, because you’ve got the backbone and all that, but as soon as someone walks into Primus Family Law, the office, or speaks on the phone to Melani, the receptionist, or any of the attorneys, or the paralegals, there is a sense of collaboration, so I want to put you on the spot here, how do you, how have you created this sense of collaboration, this culture in Primus Family Law Group? I think it comes from an absolute distaste of the words HR, I don’t like, the good thing you’re not an appointment lawyer then, I’ve worked in law firms before, I’ve worked years in law firms where there was always this, you know, system of HR, and you couldn’t speak to X without speaking to Y, and you had to go through Z, and there was a form you filled out if you wanted a hall pass, I’m just so not that way, and I’m trying, I try very hard, I mean it’s family law, we do family matters, we deal with families, it makes, and all of us have been in one way, shape, or form touched by, affected in the system, so it made no sense to me to constantly have this HR methodology, it’s we’re a family helping families, and you know, do we disagree, and do we get confused as to where we, yes, and you know, do we have moments where we scream at each other, yes, but we’re a family, and then you know, and then it’s about okay, and moving on, and getting better at what we do together, and what we do as a group, and that is something, sometimes it’s different, and it doesn’t work for everybody, and that’s why it requires a specialized view, and we are that specialized view. It sounds wonderful, and when people come in, or call, it’s palpable, you feel it, and you sense it immediately.

If people want to be in touch for a free 30-minute consultation with you, how can they do that? They can reach out direct 619-574-8000, they can reach us online www.primisfamilylaw.com, and if you have any more questions you’d like addressed on the episodes of Family Law Matters, you can reach us at support, that’s s-u-p-p-o-r-t at primisfamilylaw.com.