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Hi everyone, welcome to Family Law Matters. I’m Dr. Michael Mantell and I’m privileged to be joining Bonnie Rabinovitch Mantel, owner and managing partner of The Primus Family Law Group, a family-oriented firm where experience meets results. Hi Bonnie.

Hi Dr. Mantel, how are you doing today? We’re so formal, Dr. Mantel, my goodness. I gotta let people know that, you know, you’re not just somebody I met. Have we actually met or is it always on Zoom? Well, in any case, Bonnie, we have a question today that I’m going to ask you to unpack and it’s a question that came in from someone who’s enjoying these Family Law Matters and so here’s the question.

When is it wise to get a divorce without an attorney? When is that a smart idea given all of the things that can happen before, during, and then after a divorce? So is it ever wise and if so, when? Well, yes, of course it is. I mean, we do have a facilitator’s office down at the courthouse that does provide free legal help and they will help people who cannot afford an attorney get through the process. It obviously works a lot better if you guys are in agreement because if you’re in agreement and there’s less to argue about, then there’s less to have to understand about the law but what’s really important is to make sure you still understand the legal mumbo-jumbo because there’s a lot of it, Michael.

(1:47 – 4:29)
There’s a lot of things that people think they understand and then they will affect, that will affect their lives later on. I’ll give you a perfect one, okay? A perfect example. In a lot of marital settlement agreements or judgments which are the same as judgments for your divorce, people agree to waive the social security rights they may have in their spouse’s social security.

Done all the time, okay? Now, let’s look at this. If you’ve been married to your spouse for longer than 10 years and that spouse has been contributing to social security, you as the spouse get what is called a derivative benefit which means your spouse’s share doesn’t change. The government gives you your own separate piece because you were married for that long.

Why give it up? It’s not penalizing your spouse, it’s not coming from their share and it’s your separate piece from the government. Why give it up? So a lot of people don’t know what they’re doing and because it’s standard language which a lot of people sign without reading, you end up giving up rights without really understanding the consequences. That’s when it becomes important to have an attorney, if nothing else, to review what you’re signing and make sure you understand what you might be giving up or what you may not have even thought about.

Then, so you don’t always need an attorney from beginning to end. Is it expensive? Right, so the question raises real concerns. Basically, someone says, you know, we’re agreeing on everything, everything is wonderful, obviously not everything is wonderful, they’re getting divorced, so there’s some difficulty somewhere.

But I’ve seen cases in my office with couples who’ve tried to hold a marriage together and for whatever reason comes to the decision, it’s not going to work, that the wool is being pulled over someone’s eyes. And like you say, you need the protection. So maybe you’re suggesting that there are times when you may not need an attorney to go to court and fight every issue, but at least have a consultation with an attorney.

That’s why I said to you, you may not need an attorney for the whole process, but at least to review an agreement, make sure you understand what you’re doing. Like I’ve said many times, there are documents you must exchange before you can come to an agreement. Agreements can’t be set up because people were not transparent.

(4:29 – 7:48)
So you get all the way, you get all the way it done, and then within six months or a year later, somebody realizes, holy crap, I didn’t know what the hell, and then it gets set aside and you start all over again. And then you need an attorney. Right, and so it’s, I say to people, yes, we are expensive, but in most cases, in most cases, it is less expensive to spend that money now, even if you have an agreement, especially if you have an agreement, than to have to undo it and start it again, or have it continually rejected by the court because you don’t know what forms you’re missing.

It gets expensive that way as well. Emotionally, you can’t get it done. Things can’t, I’ve seen people where they signed off agreements, divide the retirement.

That’s not the proper language. If you don’t have the proper language, the retirement plan puts its hands up in its head and goes, I don’t know what to do. They won’t do anything.

So you get stuck, and then you have to get an attorney, and then several years have passed, and now we don’t know what piece is really, it becomes a mess. When you sit down with someone who comes into your office and says, everything is great, we don’t really need an attorney, I just want you to review what I have here, how long of a process is that? It depends on what, I mean, that’s like saying how long does somebody need some coaching? It depends on the situation. How complex are their cases? How long were they married? If they were married five years, it’s going to be different than 25 years.

If they have 72 properties, it’s going to be different than if they have none. If they have no, right, so how long does it take? It takes, if somebody comes in and says, it’s just to review, I usually start with their disclosure documents and make sure both sides have disclosed everything. And whether they understand what it is and what it means for what they think they’re agreeing.

And that usually, it’s kind of like reverse engineering. I start at the end and work my way back up and make sure everybody knows what they’re signing because they are adults and they are allowed to make their own decisions as long as they’re informed decisions. Another question, let’s suppose you find an issue that is a problem.

Something was left out. So you say Mrs. Jones or Mr. Jones, I think this is important. Now they can go off on their own, fill that in, they’re done with you.

The consultation with the attorney, that’s what they wanted. They wanted to know what else I need to do. They don’t need representation through.

No. I have a saying that I use, if you think a professional is expensive, what do you see how expensive an amateur is? Absolutely. I mean, usually what happens is when they realize something is amiss, they then want you to ask further questions.

So that may change the nature of the relationship. But I try to let people know that it’s not about just trying to get their retainer. It’s about trying to give them enough of the information so that they can, again, make an informed decision as to how they want to proceed.

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And often in that situation, you know, they still want to proceed and then that’s okay. But at least I’ve given them what I know is the right information. Okay, good.

I think you covered it. And I hope that whoever wrote in for that question gets the answer and understands whether a lawyer, an attorney, is truly necessary. And if so, when, when not.

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So thanks again for that wonderful answer, Bonnie. If people want to be in touch to speak with you and get some more information about Primus Family Law Group, how can they do so? They can reach out directly to 619-574-8000 and they can also reach us online at www.primusfamilylaw.com. We can schedule a free 30-minute phone consultation to discuss any family law matter you may have. And if you want to write in some more questions, feel free to do so at support.

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That’s s-u-p-p-o-r-t at primusfamilylaw.com. Thanks, Michael. Thank you, Bonnie. See you next time.